These issues long have been discussed by hackers and hacktivists on the Internet. They were the context of the attacks, with AOL-Time Warner as the last straw. There's widespread contempt for what some call "the AOL lamer," says Toronto Net activist Jesse Hirsh, and agreement that there's nothing wrong with "bumrushing the mall, because these guys, the dot.coms, aren't the Internet, they're the mall, and if we shut down the mall, the Internet will still exist." Maybe the promise of the Net can then be reborn. There's a complex anger among such people, reminiscent of early industrial workers before they sorted out strategies like unions and socialism. There are older hackers, says Jesse, who have a more developed analysis; and there are the younger kids "who are like, 'Yeah, whatever, let's just fuck it up.'"